The Israeli Attack

Hey Joe -
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Thanks for responding to commentary and attempting to clear the air a little bit, especially on such an incendiary topic.

This incident occurred in international waters. And now there is an international outcry. It is simply a disaster and Israel and Israel only could have prevented it from happening in the first place by not attacking.

By "not attacking" I hope you really mean "not taking over command of the 6 flotillas with as little force possible so to divert the ships from the blockade."

The blockade of Gaza is illegal under the Geneva Convention. Joe Klein bought and paid for by Israel lobby? Joe's says it's ok to violate international law because of how Hamas took power. Yea Joe, punish the people. Israel's blockade is ILLEGAL Joe.

megatronrises-You have said what you have to say. And I have read all you have to say. Now no amount of your utter bulls*it in the guise of PR is going to mitigate the fact that Israel attack that ship and killed 10 people. You are the perfect reptile the Israelis deploy on all the networks in the US to pretend whatever action they just did should be acceptable to the American people no matter how disgusting it happens to appear. So spare me.

@ 1.5:
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Joe actually calls Israeli actions illegal 90% of the time. I find it kind of funny that you think he validate things found illegal by international law. Most conservative commentators call him a self-hating Jew and anti-Israel for pointing out the illegality of Israeli actions.
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@ 1.6:
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Thanks for calling me a reptile. I really enjoyed it: "You are the perfect reptile the Israelis deploy on all the networks in the US to pretend whatever action they just did should be acceptable to the American people no matter how disgusting it happens to appear. So spare me."
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This is probably the first instance in which I've defended Israel on this blog. And I suddenly become a reptile. I don't think Israel is right per se, but it's definitely getting the short end of the stick.

"This is probably the first instance in which I've defended Israel on this blog. And I suddenly become a reptile. I don't think Israel is right per se, but it's definitely getting the short end of the stick.
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You full of it. Is that nicer.l But here is why I call you a reptile in the first place. Because every single thing you have said on this blog in this short time. Every single fu#king I have heard before. Usually by some flak for the Israeli lobby. All the way down to the "I'm not saying this is totally right" bull crap. Of course you do. or you point out that they are totally wrong.
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But this is why I'm pissed. Israel is playing with the sons and daughters of other nations when they take reckless actions like this. So when they are wrong. I'm have no reservations about pointing that fact out.

But isn't that the problem? When Israel is wrong, it seems that Israel alone is wrong. Especially in this case, when to all appearances they were trying to as peacefully a possible to divert the ships after the activists refused Israeli inspection. When to all appearances, there is no place for large stashes of bats, slingshots and other weapons on a peaceful convoy. When all along it looks like the activists were planning to get confrontational.
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Speaking of sons and daughters, who do you think composes the Israeli army? Volunteers? No. All youth are required by law to serve in the army. Those are Israel's sons and daughters.
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I call things like I see them. On this very blog (not this post, obviously), I've condemned Israel for announcing new settlements, for snubbing Biden, and otherwise for being recalcitrant throughout the latest bout of peace attempts with the West Bank. At a time when the West Bank is finally getting their act together, it's a real shame that Israel is being uncooperative. And not to mention the oppression in Gaza - do you really think I don't want those people to have their rights as human beings? They're human beings! Not animals, and yet they are treated that way. Regardless of how "justified" it may or may not be, doesn't mean I support it.
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However, when you have activists coming along and baiting Israeli soldiers to draw them into a confrontation that will of course shed bad light on Israel and Israel alone, I'm not going to stand by and allow all the fault to be laid on Israel. Just not going to happen. So call me names if you like, and use expletives to describe my point of view, but it only strengthens my resolve on this one.

"But isn't that the problem? When Israel is wrong, it seems that Israel alone is wrong."
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No that's not a problem in this case. Israel alone is wrong. They should also say so.
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Especially in this case, when to all appearances they were trying to as peacefully a possible to divert the ships after the activists refused Israeli inspection.
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A PR agency for Israel could not have said this better. And its very hard to take you seriously. Unless you work for he PR agency.
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When to all appearances, there is no place for large stashes of bats, slingshots and other weapons on a peaceful convoy. When all along it looks like the activists were planning to get confrontational.
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I have not idea what you talking about it here. You actually think there are people out there wanting to take on a Israeli warship with bats?
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Speaking of sons and daughters, who do you think composes the Israeli army? Volunteers? No. All youth are required by law to serve in the army. Those are Israel's sons and daughters.
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Finally, Israel is free to expend the lives of their own sons and daughters anyway that country sees fit. However, not my son or daughter by drawing American into some bullsh*t they could have avoided.

Yes, Israel alone is wrong for being attacked by metal pipes. See the video in post #22.

Also, I don't remember mention of an Israeli warship as being part of the confrontation.

"...Israel alone is wrong for being attacked by metal pipes."
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They're lucky. We shoot pirates with high-powered rifles.
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http://articles.latimes.com/2009/apr/14/world/fg-pirates14

Domestically and Internationally, it's the only way Obama doesn't get completely screwed.

I think from practical point of view that is the most urgent question (everything else is hype): what will Obama Admin do to the UN resolution condemning Israeli actions?

So the question I have and experts like Joe and many commentators can answer is - if Obama were to literally take on the ultra-conservative Jewish lobby in America; how many House / Senate seats are we talking here in terms of losing to GOP? What are the best case and worst case scenarios here? As far as I understand Tea Party is not very enthusiastic towards Israel and hence that can work as visceral intramural fight in GOP. Or is it that within Democratic Party we are going to see a kind of vertical split where leaders like Finestein, Pelosi, Schumer and many other Jewish supporters are going to decisively go away from Obama?

At what point, Obama wants to stop this non-sense of pandering to Jewish community while Israeli Right is on the path to more destruction and more Middle East Chaos? At what point Obama will regard this as the 'call for Leadership' and take on the senseless faction of Jewish American lobby (possibly the majority of that lobby)? Will he be ready to be a 'single term' President for that sake (as if there is lot going on today for him to long for another term!)?

This is important because at this point it is clear that negotiated peace as if to continue where Bill Clinton left, is not going to work. Things have changed dramatically by now. When Bill Clinton was negotiating, America with Nasdaq at 5K was on the top of the world, it was the sole power, China was yet to be the world's lender, Euro was shining, 9/11 was yet to happen and Israel did not have extreme factions ruling the country. Essentially that has been the high water mark of 'negotiated peace path' led by America.

Today, there is no chance in the world that any America led approach is going to work unless President Obama takes some decisive long term policy decisions - meaning clearer shift away from radical Israeli Politics.

Otherwise tell us how this 'muddle through/ schmooze Israel' strategy is going to either solve any problem or give America any edge in today's world.

For 62 years Israel has marginalized the Palestinians.
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What if 62 years ago Israel was set up in the state of CA.?
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There has not been any reasonable attempt by Israel to deal with the situation, and today they continue to force these people out of their homes and lands. They are imprisoned where they live, their homes are destroyed, and the materials necessary to rebuild them are blockade.
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Israel makes their own enemy.

I'm not sure I buy what you're saying. A few offers have been made to create a Palestinian state in the last 15 years. All have been refused by the Palestinian leadership. The West Bank is by no means blockaded. Gaza is only blockaded because of Hamas terrorism - their rocket strikes against Israel reach the thousands.
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In this case, it appears the demonstrators striked first. All the convoy ships were warned of Israel's coming, and 5 of the 6 were taken peacefully and without incident. Israeli soldiers were instructed to use as little force as necessary to take these ships. And yet an incident happened on 1 ship. Knives and live fire warranted a response, and so a response was made by the Israelis.
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I by no mean support Israel unconditionally, and would, had the incident not happened, probably have opposed the commandeering of the ships. I'm one of the young Jews Peter Beinart to which refers - I'm more ready to check my zionism at the door of my liberalism instead of vice versa. However, this incident is a refresher on how Israel can be violently targeted by seemingly innocuous forces.
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As wrong as they may be with allowing settlements in East Jerusalem and in general having been recalcitrant since Bibi's government took over, in this case, they appear to be in the right. Not that that will help them in the international community.

megatronrises: You've made the most convincing argument of the day for me.

Thanks forgottenlord!
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Also - "to which Peter Beinart" not "Peter Beinart to which." I've been typing somewhat furiously today.

"I think there is something to say about have 250% more weapons than needed but only 25% of the needed food. Should not the same smuggling routes that are bringing weapons to the region be just as if not more focused on bringing medicine and food to the region, if those things are truly needed?"
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I'll answer with a question. Should there be a need to smuggle food, and building materials? Is it not easier to smuggle in a few weapons than it is to smuggle in enough food and materials for 1.4 million people? One can argue that cement can be used for military purposes, but after Israel destroys homes, it can be argued that it can be used for humanitarian purposes.
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Now I expect you to argue that food is used to feed Hamas .

I hope you realize that your question didn't actually address my question. I also don't know why you'd expect me to say that the food would go straight to Hamas.
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Regardless, your question appears to validate mine.
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"Should there be a need to smuggle food, and building materials? Is it not easier to smuggle in a few weapons than it is to smuggle in enough food and materials for 1.4 million people?"
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On the flip-side, shouldn't it be even easier, more productive, and constructive to sneak in food and building materials for a few people than weapons for a few people, let alone 1.4 million people?
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My point is, if food is needed, why are weapons being smuggled in? If building materials are needed, why are weapons being smuggled in? It surprises me that you who fault Israel (and don't take this to mean I don't believe Israel has fault and blame to bear - because I do) for using force, will defend the smuggling of weapons into Gaza. Unlike cement, weapons can be used for only one purpose - violence, and smuggling weapons into the area only undermines the claim that additional food and medicine are necessary for the populace.
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Now back to my original, and still unanswered question: Should not the same smuggling routes that are bringing weapons to the region be just as if not more focused on bringing medicine and food to the region, if those things are truly needed?

Well back to my original question. If the blockade is so successful why are weapons getting in?
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I also would like to know why cement is a banned item. For a few years now I have seen Israel go in and demolish homes and structures, as it turns out not so selectively.
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Sorry the blockade is not for self defense, it goes further than that. Just like the over reaction at sea, self defense, not really.

Why are weapons getting in? Perhaps because Hamas wants to continue a campaign of violence.
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I never said the blockade was 100% effective, but smuggling in weapons instead of food is counterproductive.
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That cement is not allowed is something I disagree with. I don't like that people cannot rebuild their homes. I very much despise it. Israel's vice-grip on the area and Hamas' violent tendencies aside, people should not be unable to rebuild where their place of residence is decimated.
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Now that I have answered your question, how about answering mine?

Look I hear you. But a blockade that is ineffective, not stopping weapons from getting in, but allowing Hamas a propaganda tool is, in short, extremely foolish.
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Again I have to ask what is the purpose of the blockade?

The reasons weapons are getting in is that they are considerably more compact then food, you can easily smuggle in enough guns and ammunition to arm ten people but the total weight of food required to feed them represents a much bigger package. This is even more true for a building material such as cement, They would essentially be carrying in entire neighborhoods one bag at a time, that could take a while IMHO.

The point of the blockade was to put an economic pincer on the Palestinians after Israel got fed up with the thousands of rocket strikes... methinks.
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Wish they had gone about it another way, though. Terrible consequences - PR wise & humanitarian wise.

Yes I agree, and I think it is the point that the US has been trying to make of late, but Israel will not listen.

"...I ask myself, what would I want my country to do if Cuba was sponsoring a flotilla of boats in support of al Qaeda that was headed to Miami?"
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How many Al Qada groups contain Jewish Holocaust survivors? How many Al Qada groups contain Nobel Peace Prize winners? How may Al Qada groups are sponsored by citizens of a country which recognized Israel.
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"Or, if I were English, what would I do if Ireland was sponsoring a flotilla of boats supporting Sein Fein that was about ready to head up the Thames?"
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Sein Fein are POLITICIANS. They have allied with the now disarmed provincual IRA but the worst a politician can do is TALK YOU TO DEATH.
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The Nobel Prize winner, as it happens,, Mairead Corrigan-Maguire made her name and career CONDEMNING THE IRISH REPUBLICAN ARMY!
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So, be fair and write the truth Daniel:
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"I ask myself, what would I want my country to do if CANADA was sponsoring a flotilla of boats in support of GITMO PRISONERS that was headed to CUBA?"
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I say Canada since the all draftee Turkish Army has joint exercises with Israel just as the US and Canada do.
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I say Gitmo prisoners since it is CONTROVERSIAL even within the US what to do about the Gitmo prisones as it is controversial within Israel what to do about Hamas.
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Now, with that HONEST comparison, you have NO CHOICE but to condemn these actions of a right wing government which has lost touch with reality.
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The Irony is this: the Nazis never said that they were bullies. They said (OBVIOUSLY A LIE - I AM NOT DEFENDING THEM) that they were DEFENDING THEMSELVES against Jews, gypsies and gays. Now, with a kill ratio of 150 to 1, Israel says it is "defending" itself from two writers (one Jewish and one anti-terrorist Irish) and peace lovers by jumping on board and KILLING PEOPLE.

How is it that the UN (and you) can shout that "only 25% of the humanitarian needs" are being met by Hamas, and then remain completely silent when 250% of the missile and weapons "needs" are being met. Gaza is full of weapons of all types, and the quantity grows every day. When the people of Gaza rebel against the terrorist Hamas regime that puts amassing weapons to bomb Israel above the humanitarian needs of the Palestinian people, then maybe I will have some sympathy for the situation in Gaza. However, the plight of the people of Gaza is of their ownh doing. Israel is a victim of the Palestinian people's poor choice of leadership.

"How is it that the UN (and you) can shout that "only 25% of the humanitarian needs" are being met by Hamas, and then remain completely silent when 250% of the missile and weapons "needs" are being met."
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How is it that Israel can blockade the food, but not stop the weapons? Do you not stop and think about that from time to time?
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Apparently the blockade is not very successful in it's ultimate goal, of stopping missile strikes from within Palestinian territories. Israel's position is BS the goal is not to stop missile strikes but to command the the whole area, to eliminate the Palestinians, or any claim they may have to the land and their homes.

Those are two different issues.
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Whether or not they have missiles, one may not imprison an entire people as punishment.
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I would have commented on your above comment, but your arguments are easily dismissible.
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1. The aid convoy had no missiles, and no arms for Hamas.
2. Gaza is not Israel.
3. Regardless of the Palestinians' choices in elections, that is not grounds for inflicting punishment of an entire population.
4. Israel is not "defending itself" as the convoy was not attacking Israel, nor did it have any means to do so.
5. The 'Al Queda' comment is only rhetoric without content, as there were EU officials, Turkish citizens and officials, and officials and citizens from other countries as well.
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Also, talk is talk and Israel is as guilty as anyone with respect to inflammatory speech. In addition, behind all of this, you have "settlers" stealing land in a slow motion act of ethnic cleansing.
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I'll remind you that both ethnic cleansing and collective punishment are crimes against humanity.
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The missiles are an entirely different subject.

The missiles are an "entirely different subject" IF they are not aimed at you. Israelis don't have that luxury, since more than 8,000 missiles have been lobbed from Gaza at Israeli homes, schools, and businesses. If Mexico had lobbed 8,000 missiles into San Diego, what would you want the U.S. to do, give back Arizona and New Mexico and Texas?

@ 53_3:
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Usually I agree with what you have to say but must differ on you here.
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Yes, what's happening in Gaza is not exactly humanitarian - it's pretty tragic, actually. However, to say that missiles systematically acquired by Hamas are irrelevant to the blockade is missing the larger picture. That's not to say that the larger picture absolves Israeli actions, but it does add shades of grey to the black & white picture you're painting. Hamas recalcitrance is just as much to blame as Israeli action, whether it be the 1000s of rocket attacks on Israel, it's bloody coup of Fatah, or it's utter refusal to return Gilad Shalit unless over a thousand of Palestinian prisoners (many of whom are terrorists) are released.
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I think there is something to say about have 250% more weapons than needed but only 25% of the needed food. Should not the same smuggling routes that are bringing weapons to the region be just as if not more focused on bringing medicine and food to the region, if those things are truly needed?

Please excuse my damnable typos...
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Today is a lesson on proofreading if there every was one.

i agree with you guys when saying Israel is not Palestine and that there are some very bad things going on in that part of the world... however i think we must understand that both sides are to blame! i don't think this conflict is as black and white as some people would like to portray it! i do think that the israeli army used excessive force but i also think that this this "aid" is a cynical propaganda that could have easily been avoid! i don't think anyone is truly "clean" a s you would all would like to believe!
one question that i would like to know the answer to is why did the ship go through the territorial waters of Egypt?

If Mexico had lobbed 8,000 missiles into San Diego, what would you want the U.S. to do, give back Arizona and New Mexico and Texas?
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Gaza is not at all equivalent to Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas. Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas are clearly part of the US. Gaza is not part of Israel.
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If you want a closer example, then it would be as if the mayor of Tijuana had a horde of drug smugglers that were firing rockets into San Diego and kidnapping US border patrol agents. In response, the US blockaded the city of Tijuana, seized control of all land and sea routes, destroyed the city's airport and closed it's air space, built a giant concrete wall surrounding the city leaving only one transit point open, and reserved exclusive veto power over all people and resources crossing city limits. Then, as a condition for ending the blockade, the citizens of Tijuana, who have no weapons at all, must overthrow the mayor and his horde of drug smugglers with assault rifles and rocket launchers. If they can't manage to do this, then the blockade continues indefinitely. This is much closer to Gaza...Not so easy to call all the citizens of Tijuana drug smuggling terrorists now is it?

Should not the same smuggling routes that are bringing weapons to the region be just as if not more focused on bringing medicine and food to the region, if those things are truly needed?
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They are being used for food and supplies. How do you think the citizens of Gaza get what they need if Israel doesn't allow enough through? Also, most of the tunnels are under the Egyptian border, and Egypt doesn't want to aggressively shut them down because they know resources get smuggled in via the tunnels. The problem is that Hamas also uses the tunnels to smuggle weapons.
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The innocent civilians of Gaza are the victims here. Not Israel, and not Hamas. Israel would love to keep playing this game while they land grab in the West Bank. Hamas would love to keep using the impoverished Gazans as propaganda. Neither side has an incentive to end this blockade. This is why the international community must leverage the entirety of it's power to bring an end to this conflict. The status quo is simply unacceptable.

That relies upon Israeli Domestic support for East Jerusalem being the capital. I doubt the needle moves sufficiently from this incident for Bibi to seriously consider it.

forgottenlord I don't believe there is a problem with most Israelis recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of both states, with the Palestinian offices in East Jerusalem. That has always been a part of past negotiations, with an international security force guarding East Jerusalem.

The right of return, and the number, has alway been one of the main sticking points.

"...the 6th ship had concealed handguns and attacked the IDF, when they attempted to board the ship, and escort it."
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No it didn't.
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We have links to two articles where THE IDF says that the only guns on board were TAKEN FROM COMMANDOS and NOT ONE GUN was being smuggled in.
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Vrajavala, you are doing the typical wingnut thing on this blog - inventing facts when the truth contradicts your opinion.
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If the IDF says there were no guns on board and they, obviously would be bias towards making these people seem more dangerous than they were, not less, then I can safely say that there was nothing half as dangerous as a supersoaker on board. (It's hot today in New York - if I had warning, I wouldn't mind a supersoaker right now.)

Quick addendum - all the ships were warned that Israel would be coming aboard beforehand. It's not like the Israelis were planning a surprise offensive.
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Also, Hamas isn't hold onto Gilad Shallit for a few of their men, but for 1300 (in 2007) and possibly a few undred since then.

Oops - meant "holding"

I'm not sure that it would be the best idea to suggest to Hamas that they should lower the ratio of captives for exchange - their solution might be to grab a few more soldiers. Their reputation is already lower than mud so there wouldn't be much of a downside for them. They've demonstrated that they see the typically overreactive Israeli response to such actions as positive, politically - however many of their fellow citizens it ends up killing.

It is in Hamas' interest for Israel to continue to act in this irrational way. There have been comments that some in the west are trying to de-legitimise Israel. Regrettably the current Israeli government is managing this just fine by their own sweet selves.

One thing we learned in Ireland is that ultimately you have to sit down and talk with the guy you are fighting. Calling him a terrorist might make you feel better, but it doesn't solve the problem.

Finally, please don't depress me by suggesting that the IDF attacked the flotilla outside Israeli territorial waters in a non-surprise raid (though you are no doubt right). Has anyone in the Israeli security services still got a grip on basic PR?

Do I have to point out again that you are engaging in empty rhetoric, and have now edged into hateful rhetoric?
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1. Again this is a humanitarian aid convoy, and it was clear from the start.
2. Again, Gaza is not Israel.
3. Again, talk is talk, and Israel is just as guilty.
4. Again they did not a county that is at war with Israel, or even supports a war with Israel.
5. Again, it is against international law to punish an entire population

Hateful? You mean pointing out the chants about the Army of Muhamad massacaring Jews at Khaybar? Don't shoot the messenger!

Hamas is not at war with Israel? Have you read their charter lately? Schallit is free? They send flowers to Sedorot?

Blockading a coutry that is at war with you to make sure they don't receive weapons is legal: Look at the US in Cuba 1962, the Allies in WWII. By the way, don't the Arabs try to enforce an embargo on Israel?

If they wanted to get supplies to Gaza, all they had to do was to submit to inspection so that it could be confirmed that there are no weapons or materials to build weapons on board. They wanted a show instead. They chanted for martyrdom, they got martyrdom.

@ david:
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Though I agree with you at least in part, I would advise against WWII/Germany/Nazi/Hitler comparisons. They are all too common in today's political landscape and only stoke the flames of the debate instead of making it more intelligible.
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I think either side can reasonably discuss the issues without comparing the side they disagree with to Hitler or Nazis. Be it Obama/Bush/Israel/Palestinians, no one deserves to be associated with WWII villains. The actions of modern people(s) and states should speak for themselves.

Godwin's Law proved true again!

And under the Law @davidsimantob you are deemed to have lost the argument

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
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That's hilarious!

davidsimantob,
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"What would the Allies have done if boatloads of supplies were heading to help the Axis in WWII?"
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Flaws:
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1) You are implying military aid.
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2) If you went back 20 years and the World War One Germans had to deal with AN AMERICAN bringing tens of thousands of pounds of food to Belgium:
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"The Commission for Relief in Belgium was established during the World War I under the chairmanship of Herbert Hoover, for the purpose of providing food relief to war torn Belgium . The CRB operated entirely with voluntary efforts and was able to feed 11,000,000 Belgians between 1914 and 1919 by raising the necessary money, obtaining voluntary contributions of food, shipping the food past the German submarine blockades and army occupied areas, and controlling the food distribution in Belgium.
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The CRB shipped 697,116,000 pounds of flour to Belgium and evidence indicates that sugar and grains were also sent. The flour was packaged in cotton bags by American mills. The movement of these bags throughout Belgium was carefully controlled by the CRB since cotton was in great demand for the manufacture of German ammunition and also because the CRB feared that the flour sacks would be taken out of Belgium , refilled with inferior flour, and resold as relief flour. As a result, the empty flour sacks were carefully accounted for and distributed to professional schools, sewing workrooms, convents, and individual artists. "
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http://hoover.archives.gov/exhibits/collections/flour%20sacks/index.html
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How about this:
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What becomes of somebody who gave food to a trapped wartime country: they become President of the United States.
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(Arguably one of the worst presidents ever, but, he even beat Jimmy Carter for presidents contributing and participating in charity.)
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A huge majority of Palestinians are just plain trapped.
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If your government consists of dangerous radicals and an enemy power keeps on coming in with a kill ratio of 150 to one every time your government or private terrorist groups neither you nor your government condone fire rockets, what do you do?
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1) Support the foreign power who overreacts to everything and get yourself shot by your local government of thugs?
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2) Speak about the foreign government which comes in and overreacts very dramatically to everything and tolerate your oppressive government?
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The answer is, overwhelmingly #2. It is far easier to find all of the moral flaws of your adversary than of your own government and the group you identify yourself with, it is far safer to condemn people who are speaking a different language and do not live in your community and, having a foreign government come in and bulldoze down your house or your neighbor's house is ,even more disturbing than having your own government do so.
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So, there is plenty of chatter about pushing Israel into the ocean.
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I'll put it this way, I was the second of four children. If I had a dollar for every time my mother said "I am going to kill you" to one of us I would have had enough to pay four years of college tuition without their help. And guess what? All four of us are alive!
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Wait... weren't there seven kids to start with in my family?
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(I'm kidding! Child abuse was just one of my mother's - like most mother's momentary fantasy, not a reality - just like Israel going into an ocean, whatever that supposed to mean.)

Agreed!

Luckily then, Israel hasn't referred to this operation as defense. Actually, I don't know what the hell they've been referring to it as...
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...wait! It was a "takeover attempt." Phew! That was a close one!
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If the rest of the world would step in to disarm the Palestinians and help the peace-lovingl Palestinians (and there are some) get rid of their corrupt leadership, so that people in Gaza and the West Bank could get on with their lives, then Israel would not have to take such strong measures to ensure the safety of its people. The real culprits are all of the apologists for the terrorism of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the countless other thugs who want to destroy Israel. The world community needs to step up and face the thugs down, like we did in WWII. Instead, we have a chorus of Chamberlains.

Daniel, seriously? You think the solution lies in disarming Palistine? I would hate to see Isreal's behavior if that were to ever happen, The Isrealis don't want peace, they want land and they want the Palistinians gone from the area. Some Middle Eastern leaders have been vocal about wanting Isreal wiped off the map; well if they thought they could get away with it, Isreal would wipe the Palistinians off the map.

Neither group is innocent here. And lets not forget how Hamas managed to gain power. Gaza was encouraged to hold elections a few years ago--encouraged by Bush. I'm not saying its his fault, but imagine his surprise when the man he thought would win lost. Just another mess Obama has to clean up, like the man doesn't have enough on his plate dealing with 2 wars, a hurting economy, the threat of terrorism and government regulators who apparently have forgotten (or never learned) how to do their jobs.

danielatlanta: you make the same mistake a string of Israeli and Palestinian apologists: you select those against whom you are outraged. On the Palestinian side one can find dozens of people who use inflammatory rhetoric and guns against Jews. In the present Netanyahu government you can find quite a few unappetising figures and a string of political parties who do not want any negotiations to succeed. They want the land confiscated and the Palestinians out. Jerusalem???

Until each side accepts the fact that they have strong internal opposition to any settlement between the parties we are going to see this song and dance routine continue.

And the US is caught in this hapless fix. If you want to see proof of this just have a member of Congress introduce a statement of support for Israel. The stampede to vote for this resolution will will be led by both sides' leadership.

sevenoaks07, the terrorists do what they do because it gets them what they want. When the world stops giving in to their demands or tolerating their bad behavior and illogical arguments, they will stop. If not, then the only recourse is to use force to pound them into submission. Those who haven't learned that lesson from history are part of the problem, not the solution, and lives will be lost because of their folly.

Oh No! An imprisoned people using boats and supplies to make a political statement. God how terrible of them!
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As if they didn't have the right.

Just like all those civil rights marchers in the 60's were clearly provoking the police!
/snark

Please see my comments 5.5 & 11.3.
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They should be in response to you as well.

How about this?
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Bibi cuts short his trip, cancels his visit with Obama, because of this incident, as if he had nothing to do with it. Attack a flotilla of civilian ships in International waters carrying food stuff and building supplies.
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Don't suppose this was manufactured in anyway for Israel to express it's dissatisfaction with US policy?
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Crazy I know, but so is that part of the world.

I would mention that you cannot underestimate the symbolic power of Gilad Shalit.
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In the past, exchanges have been made where 10 or so Israeli soldiers are traded for a hundred Palestinian captives. Israel really values the "no man left behind" mantra.
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Releasing Shalit would be a great bargaining chip, promoting the atmosphere of cooperation that would allow negotiations regarding removal of the blockade to take place.
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As far as your other points, well, let's just agree to disagree.

As I suspected, video didn't embed. Here's the link:

The flotilla was perfectly within the rights of the people to do
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Civilian in nature, bringing banned items such as building materials, which going through" improper" Israeli channels would not be allowed.
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Were they challenging Israeli authority. absolutely. Does Israel really have that Authority? no.

Thanks for the video!

"I do, however, believe this was a trap set for Israel."
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As much as the freedom riders going to the Southern States during the Civil Rights movement was a "trap" for dramatically overreacting and unjust Southern police officers.
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No, I am not saying that OTHER Palestinian actions were like the civil rights movement. JUST THIS ONE.
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As far as I am concerned, the Palestinian teenagers who throw rocks at Israeli soldiers are punks who should face the same kind of charges an American throwing rocks at an American cop would get.
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This was different.
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Also, even with the video, we all know about Israeli special forces: if you do not outnumber then ten to one even when armed you will be killed. Unarmed when outnumbering them 50 to one, this is the only way to make sure that you do not get slaughtered promptly.
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If I came repelling down from a helicopter onto your land or, in theory, your ship (assuming I could do that without falling and breaking my own a$$) you'd greet me with stick and anything else you could find, I am sure.
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Israel shot itself in the foot with a ICBM this time.

Oh My! As if you ever had any empathy with them to begin with.
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I think you need to get over the fact that people who live in a prison, for no just reason, supported by the US will not feel much empathy with our situation.

I feel almost dirty dignifying this with a response, but have you thought about why people might want to celebrate America's humiliation? And don't give me any "they hate our freedom" b*llsh*t, think about that question honestly, if you have the capacity.

"I still clearly remember watching the post 9/11 celebrations by the people of Palestine when the twin towers in NYC collapsed."
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"The Palestinian National Authority... claimed such celebrations were not representative of the sentiments of the Palestinian people, and the Information Minister Yasser Abed Rabbo said the PNA would not allow "a few kids" to "smear the real face of the Palestinians""
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactions_to_the_September_11_attacks#Palestinian_celebrations
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I don't like being associated with the 48% of Americans who voted for GWB. So, a carefully picked footage of Palestinians who's behavior was in outrageously bad taste should not shape your views of all members of that society.
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If an immigrant or a tourist asked me about GWB during his regime I was red faced embarrassed to call him our "president". So, not knowing who thought what in Palestine on 9/11, I would never consider starving their women, children, seniors and other non-combatants to death or putting them in harm's way of being starved as remotely acceptable.

well said, I totally agree.